Transylvania and romania


#1

i was rebuked recently by moderators and some highly nationalistic romanians (and some south americans) to raise this uncomfortable topic (uncomfortable to them)
sooooo…here it goes…the FACTS

Romanians call themselves Romanians only from the XIX. century, due to some fake theories created by few Vlachs who finally learnt how to write and read Latin language, which was by the way the common language in Europe and the official language in Hungary too - I will refer to any earlier form of Hungary as Hungary to make it more simple - until the mid XIX. century.

The truth is that nobody knows the exact truth, but most likely Vlachs were semi nomadic people wandering around the Balkans with their sheeps in the present territories of Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, etc. In fact, they have nothing to do with Dacians, nor with Romans. What happened was that few Vlachs went to study in Western-Europe in the XIX. centuries, they realized that there are similarities between Latin and their language. This was during the time when nationalism was rising throughout Europe, when smaller and less important nations and people tried to find their identity to have something to be proud of which strengthen their national consciousness. This lingual similarity led to an idea that maybe Vachs have something to do with Romans and Dacians who used to live in the Carpathian-basin until the IV. century. The Roman and Dacian presence in this territory was proven with archaeological findings - like pots and kettles, remains of settlements, etc… Another thing that made it obvious for Vlachs that they are descendants of Romans and Dacians, that Vlachs lived in Transylvania. Vlachs like to refer to an old Hungarian epic novel, Gesta Hungarorum, as an evidence for the Vlach presence in the territory of Transylvania.

However, all these things can be explained and confute easily. Romans and Dacians hated each other and they lived together in the Carpathian-basin only for a short period. The idea, that these two different nations who hated each other and lived together for such a short period, got mixed and made little children who then populated the area and became the ancestors of Vlachs is more than laughable. The idea that after the two high cultured people, Romans and Dacians left the territory, their weird descendants stayed there and became Vlachs - uncultured illiterate shepherds - is ridiculous. The fact is that many people settled down in the territory of Carpathian-basin from the IV. century until the IX. century, Huns, Goths, Gepids, Avars then Magyars. The chance, that high cultured Romans had sex with their hated enemy, the Dacians, then their children became wandering low cultured shepherds in the IV. century who survived the Huns, Gepids, Goths, Avars and Magyars, then a Cuman nobleman founded a country for them only in the XIV. century, is like Zero. Nobody ever mentioned any connection between Dacians, Romans and Vlachs. The Dacian language was not documented, they do not know how it sounded, all the present day Vlachs have is pure theory based on nothing. The Gesta Hungarorum which they like to quote, is an almost 1000 year old Hungarian document. Hungarians - aka Magyars - arrived in the Carpathian-basin in the late VIII. century. The document was written in the XI. century, three centuries after the happenings, you can guess how accurate and well documented the history was in that time, when the writing is not a common thing at all and not too many documents were born. But what is in the Gesta Hungarorum? Shortly, Hungarians came and had some epic battles with the people living around the Carpathian-basin. It mentions three leaders, and one of them was allegedly Vlach - which is false on its own already. Even one of the leaders meant to be Vlach really, it was not written that they lived in those territories, only the battles were mentioned. This was in the times when most of the people were wandering and conquering in Europe, so these leaders - like one of them, the Bulgarian leader - could come from South, from the Balkans. The backstory is that this opus - Gesta Hungarorum - was ordered by the Hungarian king from Anonymus - who was a clerk/writer of the king - and he wanted to write an epic story about the glorious Hugarian conquers when they took their homeland. This epic, historically far not accurate “novel” also says, that Hungarians - Magyars - are descendants of Attila - Huns - who had his capital in the Carpathian-basin around the IV-V. century during the Hun conquers in Europe. This means that according to Gesta, Magyars were already in the Carpathian-basin - including Transylvania - already in the IV-V. century, and in the VIII. century they just came back, because they found that territory rich in water and food. If you wanna refer to Gesta as an official 100% accurate historical document, then you need to consider the above, and you need to accept not only one part of the writing but the whole one, including Magyars being in Transylvania already in the IV-V. century, which is proven by Gesta, and that is several centuries earlier, than the first mention of Vlachs in the area.

What can be true from Gesta regarding the Hungarian part? It is known that Magyars - Hungarians - lived in the Eastern part of the Ural mountains. It is known that they were nomadic/semi nomadic people that time. It is knows that Huns were an alliance of nomadic and semi nomadic tribes, not homogeneous people. Most likely Magyars joined the Huns during their conquers in Europe in the IV-V. century.

What about the Vlachs in Gesta? Most likely they were mentioned, because that time when Gesta was written, was the time when Vlachs started to appear around Transylvania - from the territories of the later Moldova and Wallachia - and Anonymus wanted to write an epic opus in favor of the Hungarian king, which shows, how big and great the Magyars were. Magyars were a warrior people, it was a pride to win battles, and be better fighters than others, and Anonymus wanted to write a memento about this, which reflects how Magyars were stronger than the neighbouring people who live around the kingdom.

Now let’s see some facts. Latin was the common language in Europe, it was the official language even in Hungary for centuries, until the XIX. century. Vlachs lived in the Balkans most probably like I mentioned, that is why they have many Albanian words in spite of they are not neighbours. Vlachs use cyrillic letters and have orthodox religion - like Greeks. Vlachs were mostly illiterate shepherds and they did not have their own words for many things. Since the Balkans was the part of the Roman Empire for long time where the latin dominated, they could borrow lot of Latin words from them. They could borrow their Latin words from Kingdom of Hungary as well well, since Vlachs were vassals of the Hungarian King for centuries. Vlachs - aka romanians - having much more latin words since the XIX. century, since they figured it out that they have some Latin blood - which is not true. From the XIX. century, when the Daco-Roman continuity theory was born, Vlachs asked everyone to call them Romanians and they changed the name of their country to Romania - referring to Romans. From the XIX. there has been a strong nationalist propaganda, they invested lot of time and energy to convince the world they are descendants of Dacians and Romans, they changed their name, they changed the name of their country, they changed their official history, they tried to latinize their language even harder, later they started to manufacture Dacia cars, referring to their fake Dacian heritage, and so on. This amount of manipulation is almost individual in the history.

What about Vlachs in Transylvania? How they got there? Vlachs were different groups of semi nomadic, low cultured shepherds in the Balkans. There are still big Vlach groups in the Balkans even nowdays. A part of them started to migrate to North around the X-XI. century to the territories of Wallachia and Moldova. They did not have noblemen and significant leaders and they were not well-organized, so they were not able to found a country for themselves until the XIV. century - FYI Hungary was founded in 1000, in the end of the X. century. When the Tatar invasion of Europe started, there were like 2 million Hungarians living in Kingdom of Hungary. During the Tatar invasion (1241–1242), half of the Hungarian population was killed by Tatars, there were huge empty territories in the kingdom. The king settled different people from different regions in the empty territories who became vassals of the king - which meant they needed to protect the kingdom and serve the king in case of external attacks. That was the time when the first bigger group of Vlachs appeared in the Eastern parts of the Kingdom. Later on, Hungary was always a battlefield of big empires, there were many battles and wars, but the biggest problems started with the Ottoman invasion, when the battle of Mohács was lost by the Hungarians. Then 150 years battles and wars began between the Hungarians and Ottomans, which had a result of a low population by the time the Ottoman empire was weakened enough and left the kingdom. This was the time - the XVIII. century - when many Vlachs decided to move in the empty territories of Hungary from the poverty of Wallachia and Moldova, because Hungary (Transylvania) was considered to be a much richer region than their country. Later the Hungarian leaders regretted their act of letting so many Vlachs in the country, because they were considered as really lazy and illiterate people. That is how the invading of Transylvania by the Vlachs started. We all know that a land is owned by the people who populate it, and we all know that less cultured people populate more than higher cultured people, by the XX. century more than half of the population of Transylvania became Vlach.

When Trianon happened there were still like 2,5 millions Hungarians living in Transylvania. The biggest cities had still Hungarian majority especially in the Northern regions. Transylvania was a thriving Hungarian and Saxon region of Europe, with many Vlachs. We all know what happened. In 1916 romanians had a secret agreement with the French, in case they enter the war and attack Austria-Hungary, they get Transylvania from the French. Romanians entered the war, but lost quickly, soon central troops were marching in Bucuresti. Romania quit the war and signed a treaty with central powers, but 1 day before the WWI. ended, they declared war again just to be on the winner side. This is how they acquired Transylvania, a land that was built, and inhabited mostly by Hungarians and Saxons for long time.

Summary.

Do romanians - aka Vlachs - have any historical right for Transylvania? No.
Do they have any right for it considering how they contributed to the culture, infrastructure, history of Transylvania? No. If you take a walk anywhere in Transylvania, you can find only buildings older than 100 year built by Hungarians and Saxons. You cannot find any cities built by romanians, neither orthodox churches older than 100 years, or just a really really few.
Did they have any right for it based on the population when Trianon happened? Only for a part of Transylvania, mostly the Southern parts, but still got the whole land. The richest, biggest cities had Hungarian majority. The biggest forced romanianization of Transylvania began during the Ceaucescu regime, when Ceaucescu settled many Vlachs in Transylvania and changed the ethnic rates with force. That was the time when the ugly soviet building estates grew like mushrooms and when the low cultured romanians from beyond the Carpathian mountains were moved to Transylvania - e. g. Kolozsvár.
Do romanians have any evidence for their Daco-Roman history? No. Their oldest document is only 400 year old, it was written with cyrillic letters, the Dacian language is not documented, their Latin words are borrowed from the time when the Balkans was part of the Roman Empire and when Latin was the common language in Europe. Dacians and Romans hated each other, they lived together only for short period, even if they had had some descendants in the IV. century, they could not survive the times of Hun, Gepid, Goth, Avar, Magyar conquers, also there is a 1000 year gap in this story, what happened between the IV. century (when Dacians and Romans disappeared from there) and the XIV. century (when finally Vlachs had a country)? Gesta Hungarorum mentions battles and not Vlachs living there, also if Gesta Hungarorum is a historically accurate writing then, Magyars must be descendants of Attila and they were in Carpathian-basin already in the V. century, when there was not any mention of Vlachs.
Do romanians have any right for Transylvania based on their own power? No. The french gave them the land as a gift, romanians joined war in 1916 and lost it already in 1917, then declared war again in 1918, 1 day before war ended. They backstabbed the Hungarians.
Do romanians have any right for Transylvania based on WWII? No. They backstabbed their allies once more and switched side in the last months of the war just because they were scarred of the soviet troops. They rather killed their own leader just to finish the war again on the winner side. Filthy tricks again.
Is there any chance for Transylvania to rejoin Hungary again? Yes, there is always a chance. If the forced romanianization of Transylvania can be stopped and the mother country - in this case Hungary - is strong enough and has good relationship with the great powers - which she has at the moment -, then there is a chance, but it takes time. Do not forget an important fact, Transylvania was ruled by Hungary for 1000 years, and ruled by Romania for 95 years.
How can this happen? There are several possibilities, but for a rejoin, a strong Hungarian population boom is necessary in all cases. However, the first steps can be the following. There are 3 counties in Transylvania which still had Hungarian majority - one of them is closing to an 50–50% tho now -, this part is Szeklerland. Szeklers are really individual ethnic group, they want to have autonomy from the romanian government and they did not give up to reach this autonomy. The autonomy is not a new thing, it was recorded also in the treaty of trianon, and autonomy was provided for Szeklers until the Ceaucescu regime for years. If they manage to reach this autonomy, and they do well in the self government, this can be a first step. However they would not have any common borders with the mother country, so an ethnic change in the remaining part of Transylvania would be necessary. Another option is that even the Transylvanian romanians feel that it would be better to get separated from Romania. Bucuresti exploiting the resources of Transylvania, which is the richest part of Romania. The reason is simple, there are many minerals, raw materials, forests, fresh water, animals, tourist destination in Transylvania - more than Dracula, who by the way got his land in Transylvania from the Hungarian king and was a vassal of him for long time - and so on which make Transylvania rich. Also the cultural diversity makes it much more different than rest of Romania. Also geographically Transylvania is devided from Wallachia and Moldova - actually geographically it easier belongs to Hungary. So there is a higher chance that in the first step Transylvania gains its autonomy from Romania, this is a common will within Transylvania in all ethnic group. In the second step, there are three options. Either the romanians and Szeklers agree on the autonomy of Szeklerland, then there will be an almost pure Hungarian region and almost pure romanian region. Or either Szeklers stay in the new country called Transylvania and a new multicultural country is born. And as a third option, after the autonomy of Transylvania, Romania losing its economy potential, and sinking to the level of Moldova, while Hungary becomes a strong, modern country, with huge economy potentials. This huge difference between the remaining part of Romania and Hungary can lead to some kind of stronger relationship between Hungary and Transylvania again - economy, social and other. They are in the European Union, but a strong cooperation between a strong Hungary and an autonomous Transylvania would have a result of a really thriving region.

#2

I didn’t read it all but well done on the writing and speaking for yourself (sorta) Must’ve taken a while


#3

you can write a novel :wink:


#4

i prefer the facts…:wink:


#5

Here also a fact (:exclamation:), because @L4K3 thought I SEARCHED for a “bad” picture (which is nonsense) …

If you google “Welcome to romania” in Google pictures …
(and it is one of the better ones I found there)

romania fatal 1

… you will see a lot of “such” pictures :exclamation:

:wink:

So if you combine the very well told history from @PFAHLMANN and what Google picture “tells” us about, it explain a lot :exclamation:

Really a LOT :exclamation:

Explains so so so much :exclamation:

All clear now, some toppers here in the forum, have that blood.

:wink:


#6

I shall not drop any further comments.


#7


#8

thx now i know how do i do control test xD


#9

interesting…


#10

thx now I wrote control test on 10 mark.
really thx.


#14

Best thing i heard in a while


#15

We get that you are stating facts, but this was really unnecessary.