[STRATEGIC 2v2] A Way to Address Mech Roulette while bringing back 1v1 and 3v3 elements


#21

@cousin_joe:

That would still be the same coin flip as with the selection of 2vs2 and would end in an even worse position for the loser of the coin flip.

Explanation:
If your opponent chooses a mech that has the advantage against yours then you would want to switch your mechs.
But now seeing you switch to that mech allows your opponent to choose his 2nd mech specifically to be good against your 2nd mech.
With that you would be forced to switch back to your 1st mech which the opponent will follow accordingly by switching back to his 1st mech.
Now you have to fight against mechs that you are guaranteed to be disadvantaged to.

In the 2vs2 selection both players have to choose both mechs without knowing the opponent’s mechs that will be used.
As such both players have a 50% chance for both mechs choosen to get an advantage.

But in your setup you have that 50% chance for your 1st mech only and then are guaranteed to be disadvantaged if you lost that coin flip because the opponent can choose his 2nd mech AFTER you have choosen your 2nd mech.


#22

I agree, maybe they should make it so that a players in arena can’t see one another’s mechs… You can see that you are up against somebody, but it’s a black screen on their half :slight_smile:

And after the picking is done, mechs can be revealed.

That would make lots of sense I agree.


#23

The reason I suggested Black Skull vs Black Skull is it’s supposed to be a Showcase Match… top rank vs top rank (not for all ranks), so it only applies to about 10% of players (and even then, maybe only 10-20% of their matches)… everything stays the same for everyone else and most other matches

It can even be restricted to Black Skulls with 4-6 Stars just to make it more rare and special if people find these matches come up too often. As the poll suggests so far though, it sounds like it might be a better way to 2v2 for all Ranks

On the replay list, it can even stand out in Gold Font, to see tops vs tops

The problem is there are certain matchups right now, guys like Sohoku, Gorgon, Mechzilla, Demo, PB, where outcome is HIGHLY dependant on Mech Selection Order. After the reveal, we both already know who won or lost. This is a horrible way to decide tops vs tops games.


#24

I agree. Heck, even no picking mechs whatsoever is a decent idea. Fights should never be dictated by a single click of a button, what kind of strategy game is that? The people that complain that the wait times will be longer are wrong. Game balance and fair matchmaking will bring back pre-Reloaded player numbers --> more players to fight.
More interesting gamemodes are needed, more strat, and less luck. Some also complain that they lack the items for 3 mechs; just don’t pick 3v3. The top players are facing boredom issues; give them 3 mech campaign, more variety, and game balance.


#25

2v2 pick 2 out of 3 is the system we currently have. This very system gave birth to a systemyzed counter building approach. This approach leaving some part of the final result to luck.
With this system, players having a lighter inventory, building counters have a chance to give a run for their money to the heaviely doted players.
By changing the battle system, for example a 3v3 system, or any other system aiming to reduce thre luck factor, roundeds will become mandatory.
If so it will very likely come down to who has the biggest one.
With the current inventories in my arena environment, the amount of peeps able to battle me properly would be around 5 or 7.

Would be boring as hell.


#26

I like the way you use “a bit” to minimize what are actually really big issues

  • Players don’t stick with games that are boring or low quality

I should be clear though, personally I would ONLY like to see this at the HIGHEST LEVELS, like Black Skulls 4-6 Stars vs Black Skulls 4-6 Stars (and maybe even just 6 stars vs 6 stars)

  • those matches shouldn’t be decided by random chance
  • those are the matches that should get your adrenaline flowing, instead of being just a dud
  • most Black Skulls 6 stars should be able to match @lordgorgon’s arsenal. All other matches (90% plus) will be unaffected.
  • You can even roll out a separate Mech Team when you hit 6 stars

#27

That is not the problem, I used that “bit” to make it minimized cause it actually IS something minor… And what you are thinking isn’t something that should be implemented cause it will be, too much of a heavy restriction on what one should build!

This is a game where players have the right to build ANYTHING they want, in order to get to tops.

In case you didn’t understand what I meant right here @cousin_joe read what LordGorgon has said in the post above, it’s pretty clear how it would look.

It would be a clean system of who has more items is stronger, simple.

With such a system as you are suggesting, even FEWER builds in variations will see the arena until everyone starts using the same.

Cause of disadvantaging other mech types? Nonsense.

If you don’t like it, so it is. Deal with it.

Not all the things that we dislike are unfair.


#28

And I haven’t even asked you what is your definition of quality game-play when we are so deep into this conversation?
I would like it defined nicely.

So that we can get some common ground in understanding each other.


#29

The fundamentals of game design include…

FUN FACTOR
VARIETY/BALANCE (variety of builds/approaches)
MORE STRATEGY / LESS CHANCE

I 100% agree with you on variety but that falls on the Devs to create many viable builds and not just have a single optimum build

The current 2v2 system though does lessen the fun factor and need for increased strategy and less chance (as you agreed to though tempered with the words “a bit” :grinning:)


#30

If it is so, you gotta HATE weapons like Fantic Brute and all other highly damage variating weapons. Cause what is the fun if you gotta put such a chance factor and put it all on the roulette, right?

However, this game does have roulette in picking and so it is just, for a good reason though.
That one is counter picking.

However yes, it can be boring a bit to know the outcome every single time. But my personal suggestion, once you wanna criticize something, always come up with a clean solution that can hardly be argued.

And such solutions are very hard to find in this scenario.

As I said above, to make it more even and lessen the chance of counters knowing what they are up against, they could black-screen the opponent’s mechs.

That does make sense, why?

Well here is the answer.
It would make it slightly harder for counters to adapt and pick accordingly, while also it would be fair.

It would be fair, cause people who have chosen counters according to their own statistics of what is most commonly seen in the arena, therefore leading to higher win rates if used/built properly.

So that factor is clean, and wouldn’t make it unfair.

But straight out disadvantaging counters, cause people decided that they wanna have such a build!?

Hell no. That is wrong in its self.

It’s against the rule of this game, which is:

  • All the builds no matter how odd, you have the right to make. Out of available items that you want to use as long as it isn’t cheating the game mechanics or stats, etc…

Maybe the fun factor is reduced a bit, but fairness is more important.

If the game wasn’t fair, it would be a much bigger issue and a drawback.

And people mostly hate unfairness, as long as they are casualties of it.

While the right thing is to hate unfairness even if you aren’t the one damaged by it.

All I can say is, adapt and improve, calculate and think :slight_smile:


#31

After the switch to 2v2 it doubled the time needed to complete the arena mission. I responded by changing to a luck-based system where I’d usually know at the beginning of the match who would win. This allows me to quit right away almost half the time, saving massive amounts of time on the arena mission. If they switch to a system that requires more play time, then the arena reward needs to be reduced from 5 matches to 4 matches or the arena reward needs to be increased.


#32

Very well said, good thinking there. Completely agreed.

Saving up the time is another factor, not everyone has the same goals in here.

Some like to enjoy good brawls and fights, while others aim for the most successful builds for fast and efficient wins.

We enjoy different things here, but gotta keep it fair no matter what.

Remove fairness from the game and you will see what happens.
(Making it way too restricted isn’t an option either, cause it would be too much of a same and boring).


#33

Or just make it instatly pick both first mechs for both players, problem solved.

Good old legacy times, when most people’s lineup was always 3 mechs of the same type, either started with a physical meta, like some sort of ethical code.


#34

Problem solved? Doesn’t seem like that to me.

Picking the first mech for both players is just a worse execution of the same idea that I originally had about making opponents mechs side blackened - “hidden”.
Why?
Here is why…
If you do that, the player will have to go back to “garage” and switch the mechs there in case you get to fight same opponents over and over again.

It will be just more time-consuming and even more boring.

A bad solution in my opinion. Which also doesn’t change anything, but is rather annoying.


#35

Yes.
Why?
Here is why…
That’s how it worked in legacy, and that’s how everyone used to love the system.


#36

Hmmm, then why did it get changed?


#37

You’re really lost here ain’t you?

Because the Reloaded has a lack in players at the top and it could lietarlly take a hour to find opponents, since the players were divided by the 1v1 (mostly randoms), 2v2 (almost no one played it), 3v3 (Mostly top players).

Then, to get rid of that opponent-finding delay, the developers locked everyone above rank 10 in the 2v2 line. Even thought it worked, obviously not everyone enjoyed, and also they mistaked so bad, by letting people choose the mechs which makes the fight MORE luck-based than it already was, considering the gap between weapons’ min & max damage, which was so badly lower in legacy.

Every single move from TS since these new devs joined just keeps making the game more and more luck-based, no real strategy, bullshit.

There is no more that feeling of a chess-ish game, which to be a good player you had to think 2-3 moves foward before using an weapon.


#38

That’s not how it will work. It’ll be mindfuck games of counterpicking based on what you know of their picks and just end up completely random still. No better than the current system.


#39

Alright, thanks for explaining ^^
Got it now.

Wasn’t here as long as you were, to know how it was back then for tops.

It’s going downwards clearly, with the introduction of RNG based weapons. Sad thing to happen.


#40

do a quick 180 there