Range and Weight Strategy


#1

Hi Pilots,

We are always striving to make the game more strategic and interesting, both in mech-building strategies and in battles.
We are looking at which items are popular in high levels and which strategies are being used there.
In the last few weeks, the items we released all had intentions of enabling new strategies in the game -
The Flaminator and Hot Flash are weapons that help you counter the mirror build, The Claw was intended to be a high-risk high-reward item, that gives very strong stats for the handicap of not being able to move, and Heat Bomb and EMP were supposed to create new archetypes that build towards a specific moment and then deliver the gamechanger.
These are more “dangerous” items as even after our playtesting, its hard to determine how they will affect the metagame at high levels.

We see that some items are accepted pretty well (Flaminator, Hot Flash) and some (The Claw, EMP) seem too powerful.
While nerfs are an option, we don’t want to lose the new strategies that can be formed by making all of the items too similar.
However, we do want the game to be balanced, competitive and interesting. Items that have something very strong about them must also have a downside.

When we look at the builds and matches that are currently being used in high level, we see three patterns:

  1. Almost all competitive mechs have 8 modules and a drone.
  2. There is barely any walking or jumping in high level matches
  3. Most matches are close combat (0-3 space between mechs for the majority of the battle)

This means that currently, weight and range don’t have a lot of impact on the game’s strategy.
We believe that by solving these two properties that all high level mechs and matches share, we will enable creative strategies while keeping the game balanced, which is our goal.

We are thinking about a few potential changes to the game:

  1. Change the weapon range classes to be smaller, so it will be harder to cover all possible distances with a small arsenal of weapons. Making an 8 module + drone mech that cover most ranges mech should be impossible, and items like the Claw will have a meaningful downside.
  2. Introduce strong range specific weapons (like the Flaming Scope, but for closer ranges)
  3. Introduce range-limited drones, that do higher damage but don’t fire if you don’t finish your turn in the right distance
  4. Give players more tools to create distance between them and their opponents - currently swords, harpoons, charges, teleports and weapons can help you close the distance, while only teleports, legs and some weapons can help you widen the distance.

These changes do not come instead of specific nerfs / buffs to weapons that are used too much or too little.
We are specifically looking at how we can make EMP and the Claw retain their uniqueness while not being too strong.
We are considering making EMP a single range weapon (For example, 3 or 4) to require players to work hard (or spend 2 action points) in order to fire it. Another alternative is to significantly increase its weight.
We hope that the Claw will be more balanced by itself after range and weight become more interesting strategic decisions. If it will still be overpowered, we will look into slightly decreasing its stats.

We are not changing anything yet, as we want to hear from you - what do you think about these potential changes?
We know that you are very passionate about the balance of the game, but we ask you to remain polite, respectful and on-topic in this discussion.

Waiting to hear from you!
Mohadib and the Tacticsoft Team


Platinum Plates Idea $$$ & Torso Buff ? -Dwightx
EMP way too OP - EMP needs a nerf
Bound To Black Lounge
EMP is too OP - EMP needs to be nerfed
May be the best way to nerf EMP
May be the best way to nerf EMP
The Claw way to OP - The Claw needs a nerf
New game mechanics
EMP way too OP - EMP needs a nerf
EMP way too OP - EMP needs a nerf
Which top player do you like watching the most?
[IDEA] Spears with Push as an alternative to Grappling Hooks
The Claw way to OP - The Claw needs a nerf
#2

1st : Emp - i dont think it needs a narrow range (such as flaming scope) , but maybe adding 20-23 kg to it would do it , maybe also nerfing its energy drain and energy consumption.

2nd : Claw - its ecual to iron boots and 2 iron plates / 1 myth plate. I think that it would be reasonable to add a limited use to how many plates you can put on a mech , since there are 3k hp counter mechs , and make the gameplay stale.


EMP is too OP - EMP needs to be nerfed
#3

Making claw heavier would be a good idea, it weight was 169 for some time so changing it to that could be nice imo


#4

@Rovolution This is our chance!
Make all heat stuffs wight low.


#5

Please just leave everything be . We will figure it out . Please ask and take advice BEFORE releasing a weapon . For now just leave things as is . We will figure it out with what we have. Sincerely ,

Se77en


#6

The spice must flow?

Ok good about time one of these threads came about. I, in my humble musings have been posting thoughts on your ideas and suggestions panel about alterations to the game, which seem to be overall positive reactions from those who read them, so instead of reposting it. I will share my thoughts on weapons in general without settling on a specific weapon.

  1. Ranges to seem either too high or too little, an energy mech is going to smack you no matter where you stand. In the real world, lasers and such lose range the farther they go from the emitter. So,perhaps the farther away you are, energy weapons accrue a miss chance to just not hit the target at all. Though, in a tiny map like the arena and ai fights, that might not work.

In, again, other games, most of the good, gritty and hard combat is at mid to close range, with sniper class mecha or missile boats being the long range fighters…

So, perhaps some way to level the playing field aside from damage and range changes to counter it would be useful.

Either include a few more weapons with 0 energy cost to combat things like long ranged energy break or , as in Battletech weapons have 3 ranges. Short-Mid-Long (some have EX) and the balance for those weapons are the farther out from your optimal range, the less damage the weapon does.

  1. Some weapons seem, compared to similar types in other mecha games, either oddly stunted or overpowered. Now, this is -not- directed at -any- single weapon, this observation, but often when you fire off oh lets say a Gatling/Minigun/Vulcan it has a specific type of damage, maybe a bit of splash, and it drops brass and spins down but it has a reliable punch to it even if the weapon takes a second or two to get up full speed.

As far as I have seen though, energy type and missile type weapons seem to do a hefty amount of damage/energy drain/knockback compared , again, to other weapon types of a melee or projectile nature.

And again, this is not a “Oh n00b whining about weapons” These are just some things I have seen and guessed at for overall weapons in SM.

3.Weight. Now then again in all kinds of mecha games from Armoured Core to Mechwarrior to oh lets get vintage and say Vurtial-On, have some kind of weapon vs mass vs use limit. Now, in simple terms this breaks down as follows.

Projectile weapons: at least a quarter to a half of the mass is devoted to ammo, feeding hardware and the like. This makes them heavy, but due to the relative ease of getting say gunpowder, brass, lead, etc; projectile weapons are often cheap and lighter then other weapons due to the fact that their ammo is factored in.

I know SM no longer uses ammo, but it could be justified to reduce the mass of phys type projectile weapons along this line of thinking, since ammo is no longer a consideration.

Energy weapons: These weapons are usually able to use a reactor core, plasma battery or some other form of self contained energy system to provide ammo, however they have a significant overheat factor due to the need to charge particle accelerators, laser crystals, capacitor banks and the like.

These weapons are usually best for limited use or group fire then switching to another group while they vent reactor heat and waste energy. Weapons like this, are usually heavy as well because of the high internal requirements, the cooling systems and so forth. They do however suffer from high energy draw and high heat at the expense of long range and high damage. A way to balance them might be to limit energy weapons to a single shot per fight, or as mentioned, cost a higher amount of actions to fire.

Just my thoughts.


#7

Hi @Mohadib,

Very good to read something like that from the team.
Probably first time i witness such a thing. Thanks for that, i hope itll be followed up.
I will think it through and try to come up with some constructive things. In the meantime, 2 things come to my mind:

  • TS own idea: giving a range 1-2 to hammer and axes
  • re enableing 3v3 (you might have read my pm of yesterday concerning that), the 2v2 leaves too much room to luck; the pick up screen…
  • @Wepwawet idea to increase module capacity, that would enable more weight management compromises/challenges
  • i think range modifs is a very bad idea

Cheers


#8

This is not battletech, it’s supermechs my friend and making them same would be bad idea imo


#9

I think that a high damage weapon like flaming scope but in a closer range will do the same of the nightfall and annihilations I mean everyone will have the same weapon just for the damage and there’s no much strategy in that way; but the flaming has their strategy trying to get space between you and the other player and has an specific range (8) that makes you think I need to push them or in other case makes you think I need to move far away of this range :stuck_out_tongue: annnnnnnnddd sorry if I’ve write something weird I’m not the best writting in english xD oh and I forgot the ranges I think that it is a bad idea because everyone has their builds and strategys right now and changing the ranges will affect everyone doing their builds useless (counting the effort and errors and corrections that we do. I mean if you change the ranges that effort will be anything just a lose of time)


#10

The game will never be “competetive and balanced” if the platinum plates are still exist
Abigail_MSA_laughProfessor_MSA_winNavy_MSA_win


#11

I kinda like these ideas. Especially the limited range drone, that could be interesting.


#12

Having items that are nearly unobtainable (cough myth plate cough) makes the balance and creativity irrelevant…

This single item change the balance drastically… either change it’s weight or rise the epic ones to higher hp… or both…

Giving equal chances to every player will instantly raise the balance… it’s fine to have item that are more difficult to obtain… but the gap between those who have none and those who have 4+ is gigantic!

You can’t be rank 1 without a myth plate or claws… the most creative builder will not be able to compete against a noob full of plates…

Also, the most powerful physical weapons are non premium ( nightfall and annihilation)
While the premium heat weapons are far less effective and dangerous…
Many post have been written about the imbalance of heat mechs…
Weapons too heavy, lower damage too low, weaker than their energy equivalent…
Being a heat mech makes it nearly impossible to fill the modules slot because our weapons are too heavy…

For the range part… it may be a good idea to think about it… having only 3 weapons that covers everything range 1-6 may be too powerful?
Anyway please whatever you do, asks first!

Like your doing right now!
And thank you for doing so!


#13

Oh I know, what I am doing is drawing a similiarity between the two, due to BT being one of the first if not the first games in this style. By considering how other games have figured these problems out, and been able to move forward, might be a useful resource. That there is a large loose canon about this kind of game without any one in particular, that might help the devs hash some of this out.


#14

I mean borrowing some ideas from other games is not bad but doing it on a large scale would not help either


#15

Devs,

I do hope your read Rovolution’s post many times. Everything he said is absolutely true, and written quite well!

This is not the first communication with us where you’ve said, “more strategic.” What does “more strategic” mean to you? What things are you seeing that are not strategic?

It seems like you don’t favor when people use all 8 module slots and a drone. Why is that? You programmed the game to have that stuff. If it now goes against what you believe in, wouldn’t it just be a easier to remove module slots? I don’t think you should do that, but your other suggestions seem like a harmful way to get us to stop using modules and drones.

It seems like you would prefer for mechs to walk and jump more. Why? To many of us, good strategy is chaining together weapon use so that you don’t have to waste a partial turn on mobility - use weapons to push or pull opponent into range of the next attack, THAT is strategy from good building and good execution. Phys is currently the only class that can be competitive while only firing once per round. If that is forced on energy and heat, both will require a HUGE damage buff to all weapons or we’ll all have to become phys mechs.

To my knowledge, nearly everyone who has the Claw (or 3) uses them. This is mainly due to what Rovolution pointed out about the problem with HP plates. In any event, since it neither walks nor jumps, perhaps that’s why high rank battles don’t seem to have a lot of walking and jumping.

In my experience, fights occur in close ranges because that is where phys takes the fight and phys does seem to be the dominant mech type right now (possibly because they can compete at top levels with the fewest L-M parts). Energy and heat are either jumping, teleporting, or using push weapons to increase range, which phys quickly closes again. If you want more range in fights, create meaningful weapons that increase distance between mechs by more than 1 space.


#16

I’ll say this again
Give some love to heat mechs


#17

Let HP’s epic plates upgrade to legendary.

Free the platinum to make it easier to obtain FOR EVERYONE! (And not only for a few illuminated).

That would solve 80% of the imbalances.

The Claw doesn´t move and by the way is not as good as it seems in some buildings. Leave it as is.

EMP seems to be a serious problem for phys.

But really, always the nerfing of any item is bad. It´s better to invent new things or improve what already exists.


#18

@Mohadib

Thank you for your thoughts / sharing your plans :exclamation:

I am totally open to discuss everything into the smallest possible detail with you / the dev team about improving the game / making strategies more value :exclamation:

But one thing before (cos it is important) …

To bring new strong / new different items is NOT the solution :exclamation:
Good for your business (to make money), BUT not good for the gameplay :exclamation:

WE had that exactly same before SuperMechs reloaded :exclamation:
History would repeat :exclamation:

The problem is not about needed new items / drones / mobility :exclamation:

The problem is about having way to much damages overall :exclamation:
(and the forcing 2v2 battle, which leads about wins with only luck / choosing right mech)

So bringing new short range strong items, is the total contraproductive :exclamation:
Best example EMP :exclamation:

To solve the currect gameplay it would need a total different change :exclamation:

I hope you really want to …

… and you are able to discuss the main issue (to high damages overall = short battles = no strategie needed) :exclamation:

:wink:


#19

Oh! And be careful with Flaming! A shot of flaming is like 2 magma. Phys are going to suffer too much. It would not be fair, they already suffer too much with the EMP.


#20

Well, first, we very much need a reduction on the weight of heat weapons. Heat weapons weight is making it very hard for damage heats to have an effective build against these latest items, like the emp.

As for the EMP, making it range 3 only might actually be a good idea. It could be used in combo with others weapons, but you might have to use an action point.
Some weight increase would not be bad either.
A weight increase on the claw would also be fair, as to not leave EMP users in the dust. It would also balance out the large amount of hp.
A limited range drone sounds very cool. Just asking- could you make one of those for heat?